Not until Jessica at Read React Review posted her Monday Morning Stepback links, did I even realize that John is only fifteen years old and a minor.
This "kerfuffle alert" as Jessica calls it, is in regards to John reviewing an erotic romance and only being fifteen. Some believe a minor should not be discussing such a book that is heavy on adult content on such a forum as Dear Author because it is a site for adults, or so some believe. Keep in mind Dear Author also reviews young adult books, among a vast realm of other genres.
Culinary Carnivale also wrote a post about this, because what if John was provided this erotic book by someone at Dear Author? Because he is a minor, he shouldn't have access to this type of book and discuss it among adults? One such scenario in the comments in Culinary Carnivale from Dhympna goes as follows:
I know I should not be making jokes. But I keep having this scenario run through my head.
Chris Hansen from Dateline NBC starts trolling review blogs and reading groups. He starts accosting poor, unsuspecting readers.
CH: Ma'am. I need to talk to you. What are you doing here.
Lady: I am here to talk about a book with Blogger X.
CH: Are you really? I have this transcript right here of you talking about throbbing rods of passion breaching the sacred honey cave. Did you discuss this.
Lady: Yes, but--
CH: Are you aware that the "blogger" you were talking to was underage? He was a only fifteen years old.
Lady: But, it was just books.
CH: You should know ma'am, that I am Chris Hansen and you are on to catch a predator.
Lady: But-
CH: You can go now and be tackled by the local law enforcement.
Again the issue doesn't seem to be in regards to John reading "adult material" but more of a concern about him being minor and contributor to an adult forum.
So this is where the main question lies. Should a minor be allowed to read and review books mainly read by adults and for adults on a forum such as Dear Author? Is it really that uncomfortable for a minor to be discussing such sexual content with adults, even if it is about a book?
I really don't see an issue with it. What if John had post a review about such erotic classics as DH Lawrence's Lady Chatterley's Lover, John Cleland's Fanny Hill or Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita? There is even mention of oral sex in Lolita, given to the thirteen year old girl by a much older man. Is that shocking for such a book written in 1955?
I really do feel the erotic tone regarding a book is subjective based on the reader. Many mainstream romances are borderline erotic as it is. A perfect example is the sexually charged raspberry scene in Lisa Kleypas' Suddenly You. That is one of the most erotic sex scenes I ever read and it is in an atypical l historical romance by an author who is not writing erotica. If a book uses such words as Fuck, Cock, Pussy and Prick in sexual ways, does that mean a minor shouldn’t discuss it on a well respect review website with adults?
Here comes the what ifs: Why when it comes to sex and minors, people may get bent out of shape? What if John had reviewed a novel heavy on extreme violence and torture such as Christopher Fowler's Psychoville or Bret Easton Ellis' gruesome 1991 American Psycho, which is deemed a classic, and has many descriptions of torture, rape, mutilation, cannibalism, and necrophilia What if he discussed this book in the same manner as Sinful? What if John pointed out in his review, the scene where the protagonist, Patrick uses a wire hanger on a prostitute or used a starving rat for sexual torture on a woman? What if John had reviewed Sinful on a young adult blog? Would there be caused for concern then?
At John's age, my sexual knowledge was very vast due to the books I started reading when I was in Eighth grade. I had many conversations about sex, where my fellow students would go into great detail about what they did with their boyfriends. And I went to an all girls' catholic school. I learned what a blow job was at age nine from a thirteen year old neighbor and cunnilingus from both romance authors, Beatrice Small and Sandra Brown by the time I was fourteen. And I got these books at my public library, and not once did the librarian card me because these books at the time may have been considered erotic because of the sexual acts I was reading about.
I'm in total agreement that children under the age of eighteen should be careful when interacting with adults on-line. And their parents, guardians or caretakers should be very aware where that minor blogs, comments or interacts with.
If I had gone to an adult as a teen or had a discussion with adults, about what I was reading in a mature venue, would it have been wrong? What about in the case of John? Is this an issue and something we should be more aware of?
44 comments:
I was surprised how well he writes for 15..I say go John!! How much sex (and violence) are you exposed to by the time you are in high school through TV? So he read a book with sex in it...we are not his parents. He expressed himself well in the review and I definitely think a 15 year is able to read this stuff. I think it may bother some that he is talking about it with adults on a blog..but he had very good, mature comments...I say let it be.
The thing that made a difference to me once I realized John's age was that he was so mature about it. If it had been another minor reviewing it, sounding immature as I might have expected a minor to sound when reviewing adult material (yall know what I mean, cracking jokes about the sex, etc.), maybe my opinion would be different. But I think John made a lot of effort and it showed in the high level of respect he chose to intone in his review. At least, I read it as respectful. When's the last time you saw a fifteen yo male willing to give any kind of romance reading material a fair shot? LEt alone a grown male adult. K, there is that cool dude over at Thea and Ana's place, the reviewer from Temple Reviews, but the point is we don't see them all TOO often.
I think John deserves credit for speaking up about the book, and amongst adults.
On the other hand, I can well see the point of the more uncomfortable aspects, with him being a minor. I run a message board, and the safest bet for me is to not allow minors. On one hand, I know Jane is a smart person, and I want to assume she had some kind of contact with the parents of John (whether or not she did I don't know, and even if she didn't I don't think my feelings would change re John's review). But for me, personally, I probably wouldn't allow it - at least not without some kind of disclaimer that the parents are in the know and support the kid in question. I think, for me personally, again, it's a respect issue to the parents, respecting that this is their child's skills I'm going to showcase on some level. I consider myself a repsonsible parent who wants to be aware of my kid's activities, and kids won't always tell parents what's doing. So it helps if other adults involved bring simple respect into the issue and contact any and all necessary adults. At my board, tho, I have to trust those logging in are actually 18+. So when I find a minor on there, they immediately get booted with an email explaining why. And I'm sure they're still on there somewhere, pretending to be of age.
It's a situation-by-situation deal sometimes. I'm OK with John's situation, although I do admit after thinking about it more that it would be nice to see that disclaimer that his parents support the decision to post about adult material on Dear Author. I'm not for telling parents at all how to raise their own young'uns, I suppose it would just make it all seem more....honest? Legit? Something like that. Is there something like that at Dar Author for his bio, and I missed it? I wouldn't be surprised, I'm so blind sometimes.
Here's the problem with this. Teenagers are individuals. Some are very mature, articulate, perceptive, and aware of adult relationships. Some are vulnerable, naive, trusting, psychologically needy, and inclined to want more connection with adults than is healthy. And that's just two possible types among millions of teenagers.
Rules and laws intended to protect the most vulnerable teens have to apply to all teens because of the logistics of figuring out which are which and the fact that all teenagers are convinced they know everything and adults are ignorant gits. The balance of evils has the damage to be prevented by keeping adults from preying on teens in sexual situations as much worse than the damage to teens' freedoms from the restrictions. Time marches on, so every 15 year old chafing at the rules & laws will be 18 eventually and free to screw up his or her life however they wish.
I've yet to read anything by anyone saying that teenagers shouldn't be reading smut (that's what it was called when I was 15 and reading it). The points I've seen have been pretty basic: teens reading smut should keep that fact on the down low. They shouldn't be made to read sexually explicit material. (I'm still waiting to hear where Lady Chatterley's Lover is on the 10th Grade English curriculum.) They should be allowed to live in a world free from adult-sponsored sexual content, so that if they want to see that stuff, they have to sneak around and not have it handed to them.
If a teenager does read smut (and we all know they do), that's one thing. When they want to review it -- even in the case where they don't discuss the sexual material -- adult bloggers shouldn't (in my personal world view) endorse that. I don't think Dear Author should have run the review. Even if John is ready to be an adult, a lot of 15-year-olds aren't, and no adult (other than the parents) should be expected to know which are which. So it's appropriate to prevent all teens from discussing in public sexually explicit material.
I haven't read the DA post, but I don't see it being a problem for a teenager to read a book that has adult themes if the teenager can handle such themes. I agree with KMont that it's definitely a case by case basis. Still, I don't see how age matters except in how one's experience may colour one's view of things.
Why should one be told they can't read a book because they're a certain age? I can see not letting a middle schooler read an erotic novel since they may not understand what's going on or understand the issues (though I highly doubt this since even kids back in my day had quite a bit of sexual knowledge by then), but a high schooler? And I agree with Katie, labeling a book erotic is really subjective.
The issue is not whether John is reading erotica. The issue is not whether Dear Author provided him with the erotic material (in spite of what you have indicated here, the point of Dhympna's post did not make this accusation.)
The issue is John discussing this material with adults. Two flags are raised here. First, it's not appropriate for an adult to be discussing sex with a strange child. Second, do these adults know they are conversing with a child?
On the Internet who can really tell? But in this case a group of adults realized that they were discussing an erotic novel with a child, became uncomfortable and questioned whether or not it's appropriate.
DA's official stance? Call a lawyer if you don't like it.
It doesn't matter how well spoken John is. He's 15. Using a child's seemingly mature mannerisms to justify discussing sexually explicit material with him is what older men do when they get busted by the cops.
I don't have kids so perhaps my viewpoint is a littler skewed. First of all 15 yro boys have probably been exposed to A LOT more on television, school grounds etc. What is so wrong with him reading an erotica book? Discussing it with his parents...?
As Spaz P says Via La James *fist of triumph*
Peggy: Again a book that may be erotic is subjective. What if he reviewed A YA novel with adults? Then would the same rules apply?
When he reviewed the Meg Cabot YA with adults, why didn't any one raise any alarms then?
Also Jane at DA is a lawyer as her real job, so I would assume she knows the laws and issue regarding having a minor review on her blog.
In response to @Magdalen re: Lady Chatterley's Lover on reading lists, it was on high school reading lists in Texas back in the 80s. I'll admit I was not required to read it and I don't recall if it was ever chosen as a book that had to be read while I was in high school by my classmates, but I do recall older friends stating that it was on the overall list that teachers could pick from.
I'm going to come at this from a couple of point of views-- first, My boys are almost 16 and 17- sophomore and junior in HS. We are very open about what they do online. I'm their friend on facebook etc. I would be upset if they were sent an adult book, especially an erotic title, to be reviewed. If they lied about their age I'd be angry with them. If the blog or publisher KNEW they were underage and sent them the book I'd be pissed. Don't send my kid crap without asking me. I gave birth to them, I'm raising them and other adults shouldn't be exposing them to erotic material.
Other hand-if they got a book on their own from the library, a friend, store etc. without an adult telling them to hunt it down, and it ended up having sexual content that would be different. Would I let them blog about it? Yeah, I think I would, and I'd make them be up front about their age too.
I guess what I'm saying is that if a kid is underage then the parents need to be involved, especially if it involves another adult exposing them to something overly violent or sexual. If they are blogging or writing for someone, the person publishing should have the parent's permission. If they have it, then all is okay.
Just so you all know, I'm not a prude and my kids can ask me anything. My oldest reads Dean Koontz, Dan Brown, Rober Liparulo and Jim Butcher. He reads, I read, we talk about it. If he wanted to review stuff on my blog I'd let him.
Is Jane a criminal lawyer? Does she prosecute child molesters? Defend them? There is more than one kind of lawyer.
And if you think that a website that excerpts books with passages like this
"the idea of giving up the thrill of control, of power over a helpless body, bound and gagged, waiting for his whim…The memory of Cavan strapped in the sling Friday made him shiver. “Yes.”"
should be courting a younger audience, then I honestly don't know how else I could possibly convince you how inappropriate combining erotica and children is.
great post, KB, in so so many ways. since i started reading romance with lusty scenes when i was 13 im in no position to call any other kettles black. the difference is i didnt discuss them with anyone else besides my 3 8th grade friends and we all tittered immaturely over the sex scenes.
im fine with John reading and reviewing books wiht lusty bits (overly erotic or not) because really who knows who is on the end end of the internet? kids these days are lucky to be invloved in "our" conversations in romanceland, especially if they conduct themselves in a mature manner as he did. i wish i had had someone to talk romance novels with when i was his age!
also, was Suddenly You the one with the author and publisher H/H? i was SHOCKED that there was backdoor action in one of the love scenes! very unusual for trad historical romance published then!
A couple more thoughts after I settled down from my rant.
I noticed as you mentioned-- and they didn't seem to change it-- no where does the blog say that John is 15, at least that I could find. I would think it would be more appropriate to state his age and that he has permission from his parents to be blogging for the safety of the blogger AND for the commenters. I think it was pretty obvious that they thought he was a man, and perhaps a little thrown by his opinions... but he's a boy, whether mature or not, and that really does change things. Don't you think?
You know, I have to agree with Magdalen on this. Couldn't have said it better myself.
The comment has been made repeatedly here that "why should age make a difference?" Well, let me ask this: If the reviewer had been a 15-year-old girl interacting on, say, Penthouse online forums, and the men there were all commenting on her level of maturity and evaluating her participation on the Penthouse forums with the men by saying how "mature and well-spoken" she was, would we even be asking that question?
Before you anser, I have two words for you: Roman Polanski. His defense was that the 13 year old girl the State of California convicted him of raping seemed "old enough" to say yes, and besides, he wasn't her first, so it was okay, right? And, her mother brought her there, so what was the big deal? Right?
There are laws on the books about interacting sexually with underage children for a reason. No matter how mature they may seem, they do not have the judgment to swim with the sharks yet. They just don't. Their brain is still developing the reasoning and logic centers at that age, and they haven't had the experience yet to be able to sort out who the "nice guys" are from the not so nice. That is why the State, and by extension of the State, their parents if they are conscientious, protect them until they are old enough to protect themselves.
I have adolescent boys, and I'd be pretty ticked off if I found them discussing sexually explicit material with any adult other than me online without my permission. Not that they can't read it--I don't want them interacting with other adults about it without my full knowledge and consent. As a parent, it is my right to want that, and nobody else's to disrespect it. Ain't no village raising MY kids unless they plan on paying for their school, medical, and clothing bills as well. So as long as they are my responsibility to raise the best way I know how, then I need for other adults to respect that when they interact with him.
No disrespect to the folks at Dear Author, but I think they made a mistake on this one.
IMHO.
TJB
Furthermore I would like to point out that the post at Culinary Carnivale was not about censorship when it comes to teenagers, as you seem to have interpreted it, but about whether or not it is appropriate for a minor to be providing a review for adults on explicit adult material.
Please, if you are going to cite someone's opposing opinion to support your own, at least be sure you are arguing the same points.
What he wants to read is up to him (and/or his parents), but on my part it would be wrong and weird to discuss erotica, sex, violence, or torture with a minor.
I have no issue with it. Lord knows at 15 i was reading adult romance novels. I think it really has to do with maturity level. If someone is reading adult books just for kicks than ya too young. If they're reading them because they're truly and maturely interested in the book then go right on ahead. We're not in the past where novels and such could be censored to a great extend that a young person may not be able to read them till they're adults.
Melissa
jedisakora,
I don't think the issue was with the 15 year old reading the book. It was with the appropriateness of him reviewing the book and interacting with adult readers of erotic romance on the site, i.e., was it appropriate to have a 15 y/o minor male reviewing an erotic romance for Dear Author's site.
I actually don't think most people are objecting or commenting on whether he should be allowed to read such a book, but whether his parents gave permission and were they aware he was a reviewer of erotic romance for a site aimed primarily at adult readers? And was it appropriate for the site owners to ask/invite him to review that book, and to provide it to him in the first place (if that is what they did, which I don't know), and not to let the commentors know in advance that he was underage before they engaged him in discussion of the book?
That was my take on it, anyway.
TJB
Good for John to already be posting great reviews at that age. How many 15 year olds aren't watching graphic TV / movies / video games? I applaud his decision to read.
"The issue is John discussing this material with adults. Two flags are raised here. First, it's not appropriate for an adult to be discussing sex with a strange child. Second, do these adults know they are conversing with a child?"
This hits the nail on the head exactly. I don't know where he got the book and I'm not his parent, so I'm not policing what he reads. But allowing him to interact on a board with adults, discussing potentially sexual issues is really troubling to me.
I have a job in a state that requires mandated reporting of possible abuse/neglect/endangerment of a minor. If something comes to my attention in the course of my work day, I am required by law to report the situation to the appropriate authorities.
Would I report this situation to child services if it was in my state? Yes. Absolutely.
Okay, so John should not discuss a romance novel with say heavy sexual matter, but it is still okay for him to go into a bookstore like Barnes and Noble and buy Sinful and read it?
So, as an adult if I see a 16 year old reading a romance that may or may not have graphic sex, I should not talk about the sex scene we both have read in this book because he or she is a minor and I am adult? I would get in trouble then?
Lusty: Suddenly You is the one with the write and the publisher with a sex scene where the hero eats a raspberry off or should I say in the heroine is a way that may shock some.
I'll admit I was the first time I read it.
Katiebabs,
If that 16 y/o is your son, or your have a trusted relationship with him approved by his parents, I say discuss it with him, by all means! That's where those kinds of conversations about sex belong--amongst people we can trust.
The problem I see is whether it is appropriate to allow him to go on a site geared for adult readers and engage in discussion with stranger adults online about an erotic book without the express permission of his legal guardians (parents) and without the commentors being aware he is underage.
Whether he should read it or not is a decision best made in his home, not outside of it, IMHO.
For all we know, one of the Dear Author folks got his parents' permission, is his parent, or read it to him, who knows? I don't. And that's the real crux of the problem. And, they should have told their readers who were going to interact with him because he was underage.
I think the young man was very eloquent and obviously had deep thoughts on the issues discussed. But his lack of life (sexual) experience really struck me as I was reading his responses to the comments, and that is why I think adult supervision was required.
Teens know about sex; they talk about it amongst themselves, and hopefully with trusted adults. I just don't know if it was appropriate or healthy for him to be a reviewer of erotic romance on Dear Author's site. Frankly, I prefer to read reviews by adults who have similar tastes & interests as my own so I can decide whether a book will appeal to me or not based on what they think. If I am aware the reviewers tastes or background are radically different from my own, then I know I probably won't like the same reading material. Not that I won't try it, but don't we take the recommendations of friends we know to like the same stuff we do over those we don't? Just saying.
TJB
I read John's review and like many other commenters would never have guessed he was 15-years-old. So many teenagers are distressingly inarticulate that when one produces something as well-written and intelligent as that review I can't help but feel hope and elation that all is not lost after all. Did I feel uncomfortable when I learned his age? Frankly, no. Probably because of the maturity he exhibited both in the review and his responses to the comments.
The other factor here that kept me from reacting adversely is that this was a review that happened to include passing mentions of the book's sexual content, not an in-depth discussion of the sex acts themselves. John's review was nowhere as explicit as other reviews of erotic romance have been on DA and other blogs. In fact, he skimmed over those points, preferring to dwell on the plot, characterization and style of writing in the novel. I never received the impression that he gave the sex scenes undue importance. He was far more interested in the way the story was written and the characters were depicted.
I did wonder after reading the various comments whether his gender affected some readers far more than his age. Would they have been as uncomfortable had John been a mature and articulate 15-year-old female? I sometimes frequent the forums of AAR and I've come across posts regarding sex scenes that were submitted by 15- and 16-year old girls (they admitted their ages) or sounded very much like high schoolers in tone and vocabulary (and if those were written by adults, I shudder for the future of literacy). I don't recall many protests from the other posters that minors were expressing their opinions about sex scenes in romance books. So I'm curious: does some of the discomfort stem from the fact that John is a teenage boy rather than a girl writing for a blog that is primarily frequented by adult women? Though as someone pointed out somewhere else, YA novels are also reviewed on DA so presumably teenagers of both sexes also visit the blog.
(Just for the record, I'm the mother of three boys—ages 23, 19 and 11—so I'm not without experience in raising and sometimes policing the male of the species.)
MPB
I was reading adult romances at 13. I was also a lot more hush, hush about it. Hearing about sex from my peers was a lot more vulgar than it was ever reading one of the books I got my hands on, or even some of the fan-fictions I've read.
If I had been discussing any book with graphic sexual scenes, I know I would have been a bit uncomfortable realizing that one of the participants was a minor, and I'm 21.
It's one thing to read those types of books at that age, and something totally different when discussing them with people older than you. If you're a teenager talking about sex with adults you don't know, a red flag goes off in my head, and I think that's where the real issue comes into play--even if he skirted past the sex scenes in his review. I think if anything, there should have been a disclaimer at the end of the review mentioning his age if they were going to come out and announce it to the audience.
If his parents knew what he was up to, and they were monitoring his behavior online, that's a completely different story, then. It should have also been mentioned somewhere I think for the skittish adult commentators. The last thing anyone needs is to be accused of coming on to a minor when they were just trying to discuss a good book. Maybe that's why they were upset.
I think it depends on the teen. Both their maturity and their age. 15 isn’t too bad. I would be fine talking to a 16 year old online because they are legal by then (in Australia anyway), but I wouldn’t talk to a 16 or 17 year old about sex in the real world even though they are legal. They just seem so young. I think that is one of the interesting aspects of the internet - there is that level of anonymity. You don’t know someone's age unless it is specified, and even then that could just be their alias. If it was a 12 or 13 year old I would be extremely uncomfortable discussing erotic topics, despite digging into my mum's bookshelf at that age myself. I just couldn't do it. I would have loved to talk about those books at that age, because my friends were still reading children's books, but I doubt I would have chosen to talk to adults. I know a lot of teens are out having sex (hopefully with other teens, not adults. God, the number of friends with older (+18) boyfriends scares the hell out of me now I think back!), my friends mostly started around the 14/15/16 bracket. Exposure to porn starts around age 13/14 depending on your friends (some are late or early bloomers). Also, depending on your friends, you start discussing sex in early to mid teens, although it wasn’t graphic until 15 and upwards in my social circle. Dolly and Girlfriend magazines had more graphic content than our conversations at age 13/14. By age 15 we were getting more graphic in both conversations, viewing and reading. I personally wasn’t allowed to watch films with sex scenes as a child/early teen because I had strict parents. I had to sneak over to my friends place to watch anything with a sex scene until I was 15. But, I still did see movies with sex, I still read books with graphic sex, and I still talked about sex with friends. I think it is one of those things that there is this big invisible line that we daren’t cross (for good reasons). But if an older teen is mature, and crosses it themselves, I guess I don't have too many issues about it. I would be uncomfortable talking about certain books in detail because of their age.
Parent should be monitoring younger teens/children's usage of the internet, but then, I have always been more worried about teens lack of privacy in normal online conversation than what they talk about. I had a short conversation with a 14 year old about one of my photographs on deviantART, and was able to work out (from 3 conversations of less than 500 words each) exactly where he lived, the time and route he took home every day, that his mother worked long hours and was never home. They don't have the same understanding of privacy vunerbilities as most older generations do. That 14/15/16/17 age bracket is a cross over period. You aren’t quite a child and you aren’t yet an adult. They still need some sheltering from the RW but they aren’t children anymore either. I really think it depends on the teen. If they are there taking part in intelligent conversation instead of going “ooh, boobies” then I think they are old enough to take part? I am talking mid to late teens though. 12 year olds need not apply. Does the site have a notice stating an age rating? To take part (as opposed to lurking), most responsible adult-themed sites require participators to state they are older than a minimum age or have permission from their parent. If the site has YA fiction as well, I suggest that the site in question should have one asking if they have parental permission.
To me the issue is shouldn't that he's too young for the topic but that the people reading the review don't know his age. To me this seems like a big detail that should be explained.
I personally would want to know how old the reviewer is. I generally don't troll review blogs written by 60-70 year old women and it goes the same way. I don't really want to know what a 15 year old boy thinks of any book (really) that I might want to read.
However, I do and would be interested in a grown man's thoughts. Say an age of at least 18 - 45ish.
I read the review and had no idea that John was 15 when I read it and commented. Personally, I like seeing a male's take on romance.
When I found out that he was only 15, well I was uncomfortable. I guess, I personally, don't want to discuss erotic romance with a 15 year old boy, no matter how mature he is or what his parents think. I have some reservations about DA posting the review but I don't know all the facts behind it.
John has said he's not planning to review erotic romance again but I'm thinking that if he does, I probably wouldn't read his review. Partly that's because I don't want to discuss sexually explicit material with a 15 year old boy and partly it's because I don't (and I say this with the greatest respect) really care what he thinks - his opinion regarding erotic scenes in a romance book is pretty likely to be meaningless to me. When I read a review, I'm looking for guidance as to whether I might like a book and as a 40+ married woman, I don't see it as likely that I'd get my ER recommendations from a 15 year old (of any gender actually). If I were looking at a YA novel - well that's a different thing altogether. (hope that makes sense, I'm not meaning this to be derogatory toward John at all).
I was reading romance when I was 15 and I thought it was racy then (but looking back I'm not sure it was all that). I have no problem with a young person reading this stuff. They can legally buy it and read it and, as others have pointed out, books like Lady Chatterley's Lover are pretty explicit and I remember my brother read it at school for his English class when he was about 16. There's a whole debate about whether a minor should be reading the ER books, whether a minor should be reviewing ER books and I guess I've bowed out of that one. After giving it some thought, my "issue" (which is really too strong a term) is that I, personally, am not comfortable with discussing ER books with a 15 year old boy, particularly one I don't know.
I think, if something makes you uncomfortable, it's worth thinking about why and working out whether or not to "challenge" yourself on it. In this case, I think it's okay for me to be uncomfortable and withdraw from discussions about those topics with John. But, that's a personal decision I made for me.
....sorry for the ramble!
I read the review, and like most here thought it was well written and never would have guessed he was so young. I was surprised that it was a male reviewer.
If Dear Author knew he was a minor and provided him with a book labeled as an erotic romance, then I lose some respect for them. I think it's different for a minor to check it out of a library, or buy it online, and it provided to them. Yes, he's still reading it, but there is a difference.
I agree with you that Suddenly You contains some pretty erotic scenes for a historical romance, but I don't think I would have had as much of a problem with it because it is labeled as an historical romance AS LONG AS the person giving him the book was not aware of the content inside. Sinful was clearly labeled and erotic romance. There is no question that you will find sexually explicit material in it.
On another note I don't know how I feel about a romance review from the male perspective no matter how well written it is. His views on things, his experiences and emotions are different from a woman, and lets face it the majority of people who read reviews and buy romances are woman, so it is very possible that his take on a romance will be different since he is male. ( I think the only exception would be if he is reading a M/M romance, but even then a lot of those are written by women for women)
I don't care if Dear Author believes it is ok, and legal, the moral compass says what they did, if they did it knowingly was wrong. Yes teenagers are exposed to more than even I was at their age, but that doesn't mean that you need to provide it to them.
ok, I just read all of the comments (which I hadn't done before). It was clear that Jane knew his age, and while Dear Author didn't provide the book to him, I still don't think it was appropriate to post a review of an erotic romance by a minor, where it was likely that the book would be discussed between an adult and a minor.
If they want to post YA reviews of his, that are written with that age group in mind, that happen to have some sexual content, then so be it. I don't care if he wasn't aware it was an erotic novel to begin with or not, the Jane's shouldn't have posted an erotic romance review by a minor no matter how articulate or well written it was. (especially when he repeatedly asked people to email him personally about topics they had issue with...who knows what kind of trouble a commentor who send him an email, and let's just say his parents were unaware of what he was doing on the internet, and objected to talk of sexual content, or a book containing it and reported it to authorities...don't laugh it could happen)
There is the constant saying that Dear Author provided John the book - they did not. I know there's a lot of comments to read on this subject anywhere it's being discussed so far, but the case is that no, Dear Author did NOT provide John the book. John stated at Dear Author in his review's comments section that there was no label for the book, nothing stating that it was erotic romance, not on the site he downloaded the galley from (which some have also pointed out prohibits minors from downloading their material anyway).
This was John's first experience with an erotic romance - so why would he KNOW what it was just by looking at it, the cover, etc? That speaks of his fifteen year old inexperience, no matter how well done his review was. So, he did not mean to read an erotoc romance, but once he had it he wanted to follow through and do a review since he pretty much agreed to do so in the downloading of a galley....despite the galley site's terms on minors. MAybe he was unaware of those terms.
I kind of wish I hadn't commented yesterday at all until I'd thought this through some more, and I thought about it a lot more last night. I still think John seems very mature, handled all of this very well, etc., but I can understand the discomfort others are having with all of this. As I told Kate late last night, if by some chance the comments had gone in a more sexual discussion direction of that aspect of the book, and later I found out I had a sexual discussion with an anonymous 15 yo boy OR girl, I would've been uncomfortable. That's not MY prerogative. I'm not his mother or sibling or even is teenage buddy. Once this was all brought online though, it was made people's business, those reading the review, discovering he was 15, etc. It is not wrong to question the potential dangers of all of this - it's proactive. Assuming things are OK isn't helpful, it's potentially neglectful. No one thinks John shouldn't read erotic romance if he one day chose to continue (and at this time he doesn't want to, per his own words at DA), or that he should be stifled, his thoughts less or not important - kids and what they think are definitely important. It's the way this all came about. We don't KNOW that this was OK with parents, etc. I still think a disclaimer in John's case would've been appropriate.
Now that I had time to think about this, perhaps it was better that a minor shouldn't review on DA, even if they were young adults reads, because he is still interacting with adults.
Also, perhaps knowing he is under 18, he shouldn't have been sent a list with a wide variety of books, especially those heavy on the erotic. Perhaps her should have only chosen young adult books or books with more subtle actions and dialogue?
Again, there seems to many difference in opinion here and I do believe when dealing with someone at a certain age, some caution should be taken into consideration.
I am concerned the facts, if known, were not revealed up front with a disclaimer about parental permissions etc. I'd hope this would be the case with ANY minor reviewing books/movies/etc on a site primarily visited by adults with a ton of adult content. If the kid hadn't shared his age, the public wouldn't have ever known, or so it seems. Had people emailed him, formed relationships with him as we do with our peers in Romancelandia...
Well, there's no use playing what-if.
I have no issue with a 15-year-old reading an erotic romance, regardless of gender. However, I don't find it appropriate for a 15-year-old to review and discuss an erotic romance on a review blog which caters mainly to adults. It is not the same as me discussing sexual content in a book with my son. This is a group of strangers discussing sexually explicit material with a minor. That bothers me.
How would people feel if this were a 15-year-old girl reviewing and discussing a sexually explicit film, magazine, or book on a forum which mainly attracts adult males? Would you not find that inappropriate? Why should this scenario be any different?
First, I hope John's parents are on board with all this. Maybe it was already stated in the comment thread that they knew John was reading/reviewing an erotic novel for a group website. I hope that’s the case.
Second, due to the adult subject matter - and I consider erotica to be adult subject matter - I think John's age should have been disclosed up front by DA. John is extremely articulate and mature sounding, but that doesn’t change the fact that he’s 15. DA is a romance review site, and romance, while read by those under eighteen, sure, is still considered to be an adult genre. So I can see why most readers (myself included) automatically assumed John was an adult, especially considering DA reviewers have always been adult before. Prior to John revealing that he was 15, some readers questioned his dislike of the repeated sex scenes, or the abbreviation of "fuck" to F-Bomb in his review. Someone even wondered if it was John's personal discomfort with sex scenes that colored his opinion on them, throwing out the word "prude." I could be wrong, but I'd be very surprised if those same readers would have said those things if they knew they were addressing a young teen instead of an adult. Maybe they would, but at least they would have knowingly said the same and not been under the assumption that they were addressing an adult.
I would certainly watch my speech when corresponding online with a minor, particularly if it was about sexually explicit material. Excluding close friends or family members, I honestly wouldn’t want to discuss erotic material with a teen, as debating the grittier points of explicit sex scenes with a minor isn’t something I'd personally be comfortable with. Some people may be, some may not, but again, I think readers should have been told John’s age so they had the choice to decide what they felt comfortable discussing with a minor.
As for whether John should be reading erotica in the first place, that’s between him and his parents, in my opinion. I started reading adult romance at 12 and watched horror movies even before that, and my parents were okay with it because they felt I could handle it - and I don’t think either thing warped me too badly, lol.
I can see how not knowing John's age could be uncomfortable for those who commented in frank terms, but the bottom line is this: we have to be careful about our comments online. You never know how old the participants are. Should DA check IDs of all its visitors, or have an adult content warning? I'm sure that teens have commented there about mature topics before, and will again.
And--who are we protecting John from, ourselves? Maybe I'm naive, but I trust this group of women (Romanceland) not to treat him the same way a girl would be treated on a Penthouse forum. Men are far more likely to be sexual predators, and visual sexual content is a entirely different medium. Apples and oranges.
To put it simply: I don't like.
Not because John is reading sexual material (that's between him and his parents to decide), but because there is no (that I saw) disclaimer telling people this is a minor - a young teen CHILD & because erotica discussions between children & strange adults online is just plain disturbing.
It just doesn't sit well with me to have adults discussing sexually explicit sex scenes with a minor child. That's the problem for me.
I sure as hell wouldn't want my teenager's school teacher having a discussion with my teen in school about an erotic book and picking apart the graphic sex scenes - it's not appropriate for the adult or the minor child.
We're not talking sex education reading material, we're talking graphic sexual erotica. If a minor child wants to talk to an adult about that, it should be with their parent, not strangers on the Internet.
@Jill
That is naïve-look at the number of cases of female teachers entering into sexual encounters with teen boys. Law of averages says that Romancelandia has its share of predators too.
It shouldn't just be Romancelandia that's a concern, but all book review blogs.
What's stopping a predator pretending to be a minor and stalking the YA blogs?
After stewing on this like a lot of you did, and getting past my mom rage, I think too that no matter who one feels about him reading the book itself, there is the lack of a disclaimer. I see that as the main problem since we don't know anything else about the situation really. There should be some type of statement about his age on the adult book reviews at least. To me, that is the bottom line, and I hope the blog owner remedies the problem or removes the reviews.
I felt bad for John when he was defending himself (repeatedly) against a gang of adults that all said his age is the issue. Not his review... his age, something he can't change.
I can understand if people have concerns but they should bring them privately to Jane or the DA powers that Be. Instead this young man is forced to defend himself over and over and over again with the same argument. He can't change that he's 15 or male or that he read an erotic romance book and reviewed it. Yet too many want to chime in with their comments about why it's ok or not. I felt bad for him honestly.
Not to mention no one frankly listened when he said that MANY of the well received YA books have the same if not more explicit sex in them. There are a lot of YA books with explicit sex and even more with implied sex and so on. No one seems to blink at those.
While I can understand everyone's personal choice to be ok with his reviews or not, I don't understand the online outrage. How is he supposed to respond to this? If I were the kid, I'd prolly hang up my reviews and never come back.
As many others have said, the issue here isn't that John is 15 and read an erotic romance novel. I was reading steamy romance novels at 11 or 12 (I didn't have access to erotic romance at the time, but whose to say I wouldn't have read them if i did?) and discussing them with my friends. It happens to the majority of young adults, I'm sure.
The issue, in my opinion, is that we, the adults, weren't told John's age. Let me ask you this:
If the 15 yo boy who lives down the street had read an erotic romance, and I invited him to my house on book club night to discuss it with me and my friends - without his parents knowledge and without telling my friends his true age - what would you say then?
That's what disturbs me. John reading the book doesn't bother me (aside from whether or not his parents knew he was reading it). John reviewing the book doesn't bother me (aside from the parent issue again). What bothers me is that no one told me I'd be discussing a novel with very explicit sex scenes with a minor.
@Jill Sorenson - I have to disagree with you, respectfully. Your comment about DA checking the IDs of all their commenters doesn't make sense in this context. They chose John to review on their site. Perhaps they didn't choose the book in this case, but they knew he was fifteen and allowed his review to go public, without notifying the rest of us so we could decide how to proceed for ourselves.
Okay. I respect the opinions and understand the discomfort, I just feel that an intellectual discussion about a book is not harmful. More like a classroom than a chatroom.
I also appreciate the concern for children. I DO think we as a community have the right to be advocates for safe behavior. I feel protective of John; you feel protective of John. In that, we are on the same page.
Jill, since you're making the "more like a classroom than a chatroom" analogy, how about considering the sensibilities of everyone in the online classroom? These days in most schools, before a topic of potential sensitivity is discussed, say sex ed, parents are given a heads up, in advance, that the topic is on the curriculum. Does that analogy have any applicability here? Janet W
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