Cookie Monster recieved a bad rejection from an agent in regards to his 300,00 word biography called 123, Me Loves Cookies and Wants More: The Life and Times of a Cookie Monster Addict
I enjoy reading agents' blogs. Some of my favorite ones are Pub Rants, which is run by Kristin Nelson from the Nelson Literary Agency, Babbles from Scott Eagan from the Greyhaus Literary Agency and BooksEnds, LLC's blog. These three blogs are my go to source for what agents expect, how to navigate the publishing world, as well as giving out a wide array of advice, especially on how to write query letters. If you are an aspiring author or already are one, I do recommend you visit these blogs.
The topic of query letters is an interesting one. Writing a query letter for some is even worse than sitting down and writing a full length manuscript. The query letter is much like a 'cover letter' where you hope to catch the attention of the agent and they will ask you to submit a partial of your manuscript, or if you are lucky, a full one. I find writing a query letter a stressful, soul sucking process, but it has to be done.
Sometimes agents will talk about the query letters they receive. The majority of the time their comments about what works and doesn't work are very helpful. But then other times, you can't help but wonder why some agents will highlight certain query letter in such a way that is very uncomfortable.
Back in March, Lori Perkins, who has a blog called Agent in the Middle, posted about an Author Behaving Badly. The post is an example of a writer who queried Lori's Agency. He feels he has been wronged because he feels more than enough time has passed where he has asked one of the agents there to read and evaluate his manuscript. The agent who agreed to "has repeatedly told him she is interested and that she is very busy, but he seems to feel that that will change if he is persistent enough."
The email conversations between Lori and "P" were posted for the public to view.
Many commented saying that it was very unprofessional for Lori to publish the emails because these should be in confidence. And, they don't blame "P" for being upset because why would it take almost seven months to review a manuscript?
There was some discussion about this on Twitter, where most were turned off by the post. I was sympathetic to "P", because it's hard to wait, especially if an agent requests to read your manuscript. You're on pins and needles waiting to see if you will finally get representation and hopefully become a published author. But then again, what can you do when an agency "receives 30,000 queries a year and requests 100 300 page manuscripts"? This is somewhat comparable to waiting on a 2 hour long line at some amusement park to go on the next ride. You either grin and bear it or get off the line and move onto another ride (where you could be waiting another 2 hours)
Because agents get thousands upon thousand of queries, and they can't really send a personal response, they usually send a standard rejection. A month after Lori posted about her query experience, Colleen Lindsay at the FinePrint Literary Management, who runs The Swivet blog posted her experience with an author who queried her. And let's just say his response to her rejection was less the professional and very immature:
"I received the following diatribe. I haven't redacted the author's name, because I think that other agents might want to know what kind of imbecile they'd be dealing with if they chose to represent this writer:"
Colleen Lindsay:
Thank you for making it clear, through your response to my query, that you are unquipped (sic) to represent fiction writers who are working at the very highest level today.
Best of luck with your list of minor writers, third-rate writers, irrelevant writers, non-writers.
You lose, silly woman.
Patrick Roscoe
Now, I do think Mr. Roscoe was way off base responding the way he did. Seriously, is the guy some thirteen-year old? He burned a major bridge. But if he thought for a moment before pressing that send button, perhaps he would have realized that Colleen probably has a big network of people in the industry. By him acting the way he did, he may have blackballed himself. Colleen can now communicate with others in her network to not do any business dealings with this author.
When Lori posted, many people were, shall we say, "up in arms" by the writer's written reaction. But when Colleen posted this response, I noticed many where giving her virtual pats on the back and applauding her for also posting the "imbecile's" name (as Colleen calls him).
The thing that rubs me the wrong way is that certain people are in a position of authority, and with that comes a certain way in doing things. It doesn't sit well with me for Colleen to post the author's email and his name. I also found myself uncomfortable with the posting of "P"'s emails, because "P" probably never thought they would be posted in a public forum. I can't help but compare these situations to where a teacher will take a student, who is being a trouble maker, and place them in front of the class or to stand in the corner as a form of punishment, thus making them look bad in front of their peers.
Yes, Mr. Roscoe was very wrong doing what he did, and in a way "P' was wrong also, but I don't understand what's the point? Are you trying to set an example for other writers or authors, on what not to do and welcome the public at large to see it? Isn’t there a better way to do things? The idea than an agent wants to "teach" these writers what's wrong and what's right doesn't make sense to me.
As an aspiring author, I look at agents with great respect. They are the gatekeepers, the one who may make or break your future in the publishing world. They have this sense of power, entitlement, and the belief is, if you can't take the heat get out. Writers need to understand that although they put their heart and soul into their work, it may not be accepted and admired.
Everything comes down to being professional and respect on both ends. If I were in Colleen's shoes, I would be offended. Colleen even engaged a discussion with me on Twitter about this saying because the guy was a jackass to her, all bets are off. I responded back- a writer or author should do the same on a public forum then, much like their blog, if an agent is rude or disrespectful to them. I haven't seen this on a writer/author's blog as of yet because I'm in the mind set that if a writer is very vocal about how rude an agent is, they may be blocked from getting representation, regardless if the agent is 100% in the wrong.
Someone's blog is much like their diary, a place where they can post their thoughts and should be allowed to. But if you know you have a big fan base, a great deal of traffic or have a specific role to play, you may have to stop and think what you re writing before you push that publish button, because some may take offense to it.
I have been there a few times myself, where I have wanted to rant over personal situations, but have stopped myself because I wasn't sure how it would be received here. One such example was something that happened to me a year ago with an author I thought I was on friendly terms with at the time. I had just started to query to agents and in my query letter I compared my manuscript to this author's books, believing this was the highest form of flattery, Because I really did believe I was on good terms with the author (we shared goofy emails and posted on each other's blogs), I sent the author my query letter and asked for advice.
The author proceeded to say that I was off base to even dare compare my work to them, to think I had a right to even want to be published because book reviewers have no place in becoming published because they have made enemies in the industry. And because the author gets paid 25 cents a word, they don't have time to put up with me because I basically have nothing important to give them or can do anything worthwhile for them.
After that email, I was floored and heartbroken. I was close to posting about this situation and perhaps sharing the email, but keeping the author's name a secret. I sat there going back and forth and finally decided not to. Instead I talked with my own network of people privately on how to handle it, instead of taking it onto a public forum, such as my blog. I then simply turned my back on the author, pretended they no longer existed. I stopped visiting their blog, promoting their books, no longer mention them by name and haven't recommended them to anybody since then. Some may think I am just a lowly book blogger, but you never know who I know and what I can do.
Respect, professionalism and maturity are the three words that come to mind. It should be expected on all ends. I'm always in the belief that no matter who you meet, you never know how that one person you come in contact can perhaps help you in some way. Or on the other end, if you disrespect them, they can possible stop you from achieving something. We learn not to burn bridges in your business relationships, regardless of how good or or bad things may end. I don’t believe in harassing someone for getting a degree from an online school or trying to increase their salary with a certificate. The same goes for the writer opening the lines of communications with an agent, and the agent who should also be respectful and professional in their dealings with the writer. And finally the relationship between an author, and say a lesser known aspiring author, who could possibly help them down the line, but now chooses not to because they feel the author has disrespected them in some way.
I know there is going to be different opinions on this subject and I welcome the discussion on this matter because I'm very interested in seeing what both sides think, including agents, writers, and authors.
What do you think?
28 comments:
Katie, at the risk of cutting off my own nose to spite my face, I'm going to respond to your post.
I am very professional in the way I query both agents and publishers. Always. I study their sites, I look at the examples they post of query letters they find interesting and I determine what types of literature they represent. I wait patiently for a response and I follow their guidelines as to when I should email them to ask about the lack of a response.
In over a year of querying - and I did give up querying four years ago - only one agent responded politely.
Most did not respond at all, which I obviously assumed to be a rejection.
One agent, from a very big agency, who shall remain nameless, responded positively and when I replied to her email - telling her how thrilled I was to receive a response and asking her a few questions - she proceeded to send me a very rude reply which to this day I don't understand. I almost felt as if she was replying to someone else as the letter was all about the publishing business and had nothing to do with me.
An agent from another big agency expressed interest in a work of mine and requested the entire manuscript. I promptly thanked her and sent it to her. She never got back to me. I waited four months before I emailed her, asking about follow-up. I emailed her a couple more times over the next four months, but heard nothing - ever.
Another agent requested that query letters be written exactly to his specifications. I did so, following his guidelines to a 'T'. His response to me? Nothing about my submission and query - he emailed me to tell me that my letter was too much like every other letter he receives so therefore he had no interest in my work. Duh.
This is a catch 22 - publishers tell you they won't accept un-agented submissions while agents won't accept you if you are a nobody.
It's a no-win situation, IMO.
Thanks for saying this. The query process can be stressful for both writers and agents. Taking the frustrations out on the other party is helpful to no one.
I just wanted to comment and say I applaud you for being professional, and instead of posting the author's name on your blog, and possibly elsewhere, you just stopped mentioning and promoting them (Though I'll admit to being curious as to who would do that, tsk).
And whomever that author is, he or she should be ashamed for responding the way they did. Book reviewers may not have ultimate power (wouldn't that be cool?!) but it's probably fair to say an author wouldn't want to upset one of us. Who knows what could be said and then make the blog circuit. Said author should feel lucky that you chose to take the high road.
And to share my own two cents.. I'm a little miffed that someone would say book reviewers have no place being published. I got into reviewing so I could read more in the genres I love and want to be involved in. So I could see and experience different writing styles, and decide what works and what doesn't. I want to be a published author some day, and I think reviewing books has helped me towards that goal - I've learned a lot in just these few short months I've been doing it.
Wow, okay, I'll stop now, I think this comment has gone on long enough. Whew.
Best,
Morning Glow
I have to agree that respect, professionalism, and maturity are the keys to business. Writing, publishing and any other type of business. Of course, we all want to vent when we are wronged. You showed you are a true professional by taking the high road. I don't get why bloggers/reviewers shouldn't be published. Some of the best stories I read each day are by book reviewers/bloggers. Plus every author I've ever read about tells people if you want to write, read that genre and write about it to learn more.
Wait a minute, I'm confused...I seem to remember you blogging about the author who told you reviewers can't be published authors. You talked about it on Twitter, I know that much. And I could have swore you blogged about it as well (I'm too lazy to go look).
While it's true you didn't name the author outright or post the emails, you certainly complained about it in public, casting that author in a bad light and looking to garner sympathy to your own cause. How is that different? Because you didn't post private emails and these agents did?
For the record I think Colleen Lindsay was wrong to post that email along with his real name. I think she would have been better served to send his name out privately to other agencies. But then it's no secret that I find people posting private emails very distasteful.
Holly: I blogged about a different situation once when meeting an author, but that has been resolved. I've never mentioned this situation.
I am using my situation as an example for others who have been in the same situation. I really don't have a cause.
I know you've brought this up before because you've talked about how an author told you a reviewer can't get published. Are you saying two separate authors told you that?
And I didn't mean your cause in mentioning it today. I meant your cause in bringing it up in the first place. You wanted to gain sympathy for yourself - as a reviewer and aspiring author - and to have others come forward and say that author was wrong, that you can be a published author and a reviewer. Right?
That's what I meant by gaining sympathy to your cause.
I am really trying not to look for sympathy at all, but again people may think that, like you do.
If people believe that an author can't be a reviewer, that's their opinion.
I've never been rude or even responded to agent's rejection emails. I figure that if it takes them so long to reply, they won't appreciate me thanking them for the email back. But now I'm nervous that my stuff is in the public. Like, "hey everyone, this is just a really bad letter" kind of way. Hopefully they change the name at least. I'd probably cry if I saw it.
Anyway, I relate to the author thing. I never compared my book to them (or any other author) but i followed her books, blog, website, and she b*tch-blogged about her readers. Someone called her out on it, saying, hey, we keep you paid (I would have if they hadn't already done it). And she totally went to town on them, along with some worshippers of hers. It sucks too, because she's big in the YA genre (along with romance) and I would love to see her eat her words everyday for lunch because she had the nerve to discredit her fans. I literally stopped in the middle of 2 of her books and haven't bought or recommended any to anyone.
Don't get me wrong. I understand that people get CRAZY about books, and they just want more and more and more. Or you get asked the same question 6 thousand times a day. But come on, you put yourself out there. You wanted to have your books published and read. At least have a standard answer for all those repeated questions with links to where you can find that information. And for your own sake, don't b*tch about your readers!!! They're a big reason why you're still around to write more and keep getting paid. Ugh. I don't think I'll ever read anything by them or relations again because of it.
kay.. done. sorry. hehe. but it feels good to get that off my chest :D I've been holding it in for a while!
Hmmm, loaded topic. I pretty much agree on the basic message. Respect on both ends of the spectrum is usually best. But I'm not in either set of shoes and have no experienced idea of what's like to be in either pair of shoes. In the end, an online rant from either isn't going to look good. But it sure gets people talking.
On even the remotest possibility of someone looking for sympathy from within their respective online communities, I would only advise caution. I've participated in a group or two where I thought I'd met the kind of people I could share things with (as these very people were doing so as well), but when I did, I was jumped on like I was the bone, they the ravenous dogs. I don't say that intending to get any sympathy either. I'm glad it happened. It taught me a lesson, and that is that unfortunately you don't really know some people you talk to online. Hell, sometimes in person too. I feel the only ones I really know now are some of the ones I've gone on to form email contact with, and I hope to meet them in person soon. But as Babs shows, sometimes even those aren't what we think they are.
But I can understand wanting to get some sympathy when you are emotionally devastated. It's part of being human, and many of us feel we have online-only friends we can share with. I think I've seen more than one good example of this not being such a great idea on Twitter, though. It probably is best to keep it off there if possible. 140 characters isn't much room, but it does leave a lot of room for speculation and miscommunication.
Kmont: also the blogging world is a very insulated one and you do build connections and relationships. There has been may other times I thought I was on the same page with another person but wasn't. But because emails and blogging are not face to face, you truly don't know that they person is thinking because you can't see them (unless we resort to Skype in the future...)
As a general rule I think it's probably a bad idea to post personal emails. Even when you take out the name. It may make you feel better but it can make you look petty and possibly just as bad as the person who wrote the email. I think it's best to just leave it be. Maybe rant in private, but not on the internet for the world to see.
I recall someone talking about an author who said reviewers couldn't be authors but I don't recall it being here in this blog. I think that was somewhere else. Maybe during or after the whole bruhaha on #romfail on twitter.
Posting e-mails and names is just wrong and unprofessional. I think talking about why a certain query or actions of a certain person with some quotes is not necessarily bad if it's done as kind of a "don't do this, it could bite you in the ass" kind of thing.
There's a lot to take in with this post--I do think posting e-mails, especially with people's names attached, is unprofessional. Not to mention I think there might be some legal issues with posting people's correspondence like that without their permission (?), but maybe that only qualifies for paper correspondence. Anyway, to me it feels like the agent who posted Roscoe's e-mail was trying to get him blackballed, to which I can only say--what is this, high school? That letter was pretty silly to get all worked up about. As for "P", seven months is WAY too long to wait for an agent response. Not only are you on tenterhooks waiting for a response, but there are other agents out there you could be querying while waiting. Personally I think that's more unprofessional than calling and asking when the agent is going to get to your manuscript.
It's true that you never know what sort of connections people have (I grew up in the kind of town where everyone knows everybody else, so I learned that the hard way), but using those connections to blackball people to me is just bad karma, professionalism aside. It's never going to hurt you to try to act like the bigger person.
So much to think about in this post and in the comments. I too agree that respect, professionalism and maturity are important, whether for a business or personal relationship.
While I agree with the agents 90% of the time. I think that there is a huge power abuse in the system. The whole we hold your book in our hands syndrome that makes them all seem a bit bitter and ridiculous when all you are reading are complaints on queries that are wrong.
Take Coleen (whom I love btw) for instance. Go to her blog and go to her policy. It is hard to figure out exactly what she wants. Instead of a point by point on how to query her it is filled with massive paragraphs on what NOT to do.
Then you do it wrong because the information is not there in any discernible terms and boom auto rejected.
Then you hear but others do it right? Well not all of us know how to query perfectly. Some of us are learning. Make your websites a wealth of how to alone with the please don't.
"They are the gatekeepers, the one who may make or break your future in the publishing world. They have this sense of power, entitlement, and the belief is, if you can't take the heat get out."
Agents are definitely important, but I don't think this guy's career is necessarily over, unless he decides to stop writing-if he submits a book to an agent and the agent feels it's the next mega blockbuster, that agent isn't very likely to care about this. I'm sorry, I just don't see it-the guy's attitude may interfere, but that's between him and future biz associates. If an agent feels this guy could be a potential Grisham/Meyer/Rowling/Robb... eh, is it really a WISE biz decision to turn away over something like this? From a biz standpoint? It doesn't look like it to me.
I can't so much comment on the sense of power/entitlement-certainly those sort of people ARE there, but there are a great many agents who aren't like that, as well.
However, there is a great deal of stress...or heat...in this industry. It's not necessarily a business for somebody who isn' up to handling the stress, or can't handle it.
Personally speaking, I don't much have any issue with the writer's note being posted-had he been an unpublished writer, a young writer, my thoughts on this might be different-people screw up and make mistakes all the time, and this sort of thing could certainly be one of those.
But he's been published. He should really, really have realized that his response wasn't not going to do him any good...at all.
I can honestly say I think the haiku contest that later came up? Did not see any point at all in that, and I imagine a number of people decided to join in simply in hopes of either impressing their friends or maybe hoping to make an impression on Ms. Lindsey. That's kind of human nature.
I do think that professionalism, maturity, and respect will take a person a lot farther in this business than one will go without.
There's really no way around that.
And that mess about the author-there was no reason for her to get nasty with you, but I also think you were wise to just let it go.
Sometimes that's the best way to handle it-it's generally how I handle things. There are authors I stopped reading, discussing, talking to, etc because of...well, issues. I won't bash them, there is no point, but I also don't put my money in their pocket. It's not so much as a 'take that' thing-I just no longer have interest.
Interesting post, and comments. Nice job of using respect and maturity here too, Katie. Very commendable. :)
@Heidenkind -- Unless an agent asks for an exclusive, nobody queries agents one at a time any more. Multiple queries are the norm (otherwise everyone would die of old age waiting for responses, lol). The agent who did not reply for 7 months did not actually 'hold up' the author from continuing to seek representation. Unless, of course, they asked for an exclusive, but those almost always have a set time limit and are on the full MS, not simply a query. :)
Agents get bombarded with so much BS. The purpose of sharing a "what not to do" email is in hopes that fewer authors will do it! It's not fun to be at the receiving end of childish tirades and petty threats.
I agree that name-calling is not a good idea for both sides. I don't think the guy from the Perkins example crossed that line.
You know, I was rejected dozens of times before my first offer. Most of the agents didn't even respond, let alone send a form letter. Editors kept my manuscripts for much longer than I expected (6-9 months plus). I never ONCE sent a follow up email. My motto was "don't be annoying." If I didn't hear from someone after a reasonable amount of time, I moved on. I was always too busy working on a new project to dwell on the older ones.
My advice to anyone looking for an agent is to attend a conference and meet one in person. Also, if an agent or editor takes the time to read and respond to your work, listen to the criticism and make changes. Keep writing, keep submitting, and be flexible.
Great topic!
Well, you certainly get to hear all the juicy gossip stuff way before I do, Kate. I clearly don't hang with the cool crowd. My bad...
:)
I think it's unfortunate that all the publishing dirty linen is being hung out there for readers to see. Publishing used to be an esoteric industry where books magically appeared on the shelves for readers to buy. Now all the wires and mechanics are daily blogs about in bloody detail for readers to gasp over. It's like letting readers see the backstage area of a theatre, in a way. It destroys some of the illusion.
But it also brings authors down off pedastals and makes them human, so that's not a bad thing, in the long run. If the industry survives the shakedown, it'll be all to the good.
Tracy
Interesting discussion. I'd never been to your blog before...but you'd reviewed one of my books and posted it on Amazon. I saw your name/link on another reader/reviewer's blog I visit sometimes. So, I clicked on it - curious to see if the "you" I saw in the review you did was really you. If that didn't confuse you, I'm glad. :)
I feel like you've got three discussions going on here:
1. Is it professional to post someone's email (with name and address) in a public forum (implied *without* their permission)?
Um...no. I don't give out email addresses for one friend to another without permission. I find posting it online lacking in both common courtesy and professionalism. Would make me think seriously about working with that agent and/or agency.
2. Can/should a reviewer be an aspiring author?
Gosh...isn't that the reviewer's decision to make? Would it bother me that you (one of these aspiring authors/reviewers) compared your work favorably to mine in a query letter (though I'm betting you wouldn't )? Of course not. Heck, it wouldn't even bother me if you compared it unfavorably. Any way that you can get your point across to the agent and hopefully garner interest, more power to you. ;-)
Nor would I question your desire to do both things you clearly love - write reviews and write novels. In fact, you have nothing but my personal best wishes on your efforts to publish a novel. (I'm not so enamored of your reviews. ;-) Sorry. Just like an author's voice - a reviewers voice doesn't click with every reader.)
3. Is it better to take the high road and not mention those who hurt us by name in a public forum?
For me, this is absolutely a no brainer. :) Of course! Not doing so will come back to bite you right in the a$$, no question.
Is it best to compeletely ignore issues that have caused us hurt?
Sometimes. Sometimes, we need to discuss those issues to find, clarity, solutions, future benefit, what have you. As you said, one time you *did* discuss an author's comment that you shouldn't be reviewing and pursuing publication. Another time, you chose not to.
Personally? I ignore most negatie reviews, but when one has something specific in it I agree I need to work on, I'll go to my readers for input if I feel the need for clarity. After all, connecting to their hearts is why I write. :) So...it's really a case by case, isn't it?
Hi Lucy! Welcome! First of all I should say I have been reading your books for years, and hopefully I don't sound like a fan girl, but The Real Deal is one of my favorite romances that I have re-read more times that I can count.
I find it odd that emails and/or names would be posted without permission, but it seems to be common, especially when agents post on their blogs. Unless, they as the person who queried if they can use their letter as an example.
Lately, especially with reviews I post on Amazon, people have left comments giving their opinion about my reviewing style. Some come out and say they haven't like what I said or said, thanks for the review. So right there I am being reviewed also.
I do love writing reviews, but I have somethings in the works where it may take away from my normal reviewing. Something is going to have to give and in this case, it maybe the amount of reviewing I do.
I do think someone who is a published author can also review. I was talking with someone who works for the Associated Press and she said that her book reviewers also publish, so it isn't a big deal, and I am going with that. :)
Well, now that explains how you ended up reviewing MC. ;-) And I'm both pleased and surprised to learn you've been reading my books for a while. Just goes to show assumptions made on one review may be false. LOL As for your new venture and reviewing...I just gave a workshop on recovering from and avoiding burnout. The biggest element to this is to know what you can and cannot give your time to without draining reserves that are not easily rebuilt. :) So, good for you - whatever you decide to do, it sounds like you're counting the cost wisely.
BTW - on the reviewing and being published...do you read Eloisa James' monthly review column for B&N.com? She only chooses to review the books she's enjoyed, but she writes an amazing column that shows both her high level of intelligence and love for our genre. So, of course...it can be done.
Negative reviews written by those within the industry are often seen with suspicion by more than just authors. Be prepared for that reality and you won't feel so blindsided when run into it.
Just as I know there are readers, editors and agents who just don't like the super alpha hero. Comments about my heroes being too alpha don't phase me because I know this to be the case. :) I also know that some editors would never buy my books and some agents would not represent me. I'm very happy with my editors and adore my agent, so this is not a problem for me. :)
... my ears perk up at the mention of an Alpha... I don't think there's such a thing as toooo Alpha! In fact... that sounds really weird. I think a visit to the bookstore is in order today. I did just get paid afterall ;). YAY! I can't wait to read some super-Alpha material!!!!!!!! :D
I wouldn't name names or post an entire email. Maybe an excerpt.
This is a really touchy subject. For me, it depends on the circumstances. If I had an agent who was being extremely rude to me, I might make mention of it somewhere appropriate (like the Bewares & Background Checks section of the Absolute Write forum) -- but I doubt I'd post something like that to my blog.
I dunno -- I'm going to have to mull this one over a bit more before I could say for sure and under what circumstances I would post something nasty somebody emailed/said/did to me on my blog.
-J
Katie - of course a reviewer can be an author! Why on earth not? That's as bad as saying a nurse can't be an author or a chef can't be an author. Silly. It's a no-brainer.
sooo I picked up Moon Craving to test your "too alpha" theory, Lucy... and I LOVED it!! :D. I reviewed it on my blog in case you want to take a look. I just don't want to be rude to KB by posting the link.
I have gone thought the pain of publishing a book and am no more interested. Anyways thanks for sharing this with me!
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